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What RO Server You Guys Play Now?


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#241
Simmy

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@Andrew/Poy
Most walls in RO are actually just raised land with textures. There are a few wall objects though. I think the biggest thing would be the GAT (walkable and unwalkable cells) unless you want to be able to walk through walls /slur

@Kiels
Did that server you showed me ever come out of beta? I'd totes pretend to know whatever Arabic language that is and play and get lost af ahahah @/" Miss you snail

@Perry
My text is ugly, pls edit dis and make it pink or orange and 12pt font thx. Phone r dumb ;c

FIXED MYSELF U JERK


Edited by Simmy, 10 December 2016 - 01:21 AM.


#242
Perry the Platypus

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@Perry
 
/hmm... I see what you're saying. What I had in mind was more like one huge map where there would be no warps to other rooms, and players would perhaps be building some sort of maze (no roof pieces this time, just walls). Imagine being "inside" the structure being built - like being in a sphinx map for example, one would see the walls and the floor, but not the ceiling. I guess it would be more like a dungeon builder, without the ability to see the "exterior" (might be easier to walk through if no roof/ceiling "objects" to get highlighted when pathing around), and you could still have warp portals that warp between floors rather than between rooms, I guess. Might even be simpler if the objects would all made "untargetable", and a house manager NPC could just ask the player various amounts of stuff and things at regular intervals as upkeep/maintenance of the built structures.
 
Btw, if you've seen the game Shoppe Keep? Might bring a whole new dimension to vending if players could actually lay out their own "shops" and de-clutter vending zones. There seems to be no lack of "furniture" all around RO to sample for NPC models either. Might just be crazy enough to work, but I dunno... :3

Like Gecko mentioned, the GAT would be the main issue since RO doesn't have a way to just update that on the fly (or drop permanent objects onto a map, for that matter). The only way RO could handle it is using dynamic objects (mobs, portals, NPCs, etc), all of which would have their own quirks, aside from enabling/disabling portals to add/remove rooms. </3

Not sure what you mean with the shop idea, though. :( I think the current way vending works is actually fairly decent, so long as we keep the "no vending in adjacent cells" patch in there.
 

@Perry
My text is ugly, pls edit dis and make it pink or orange and 12pt font thx. Phone r dumb ;c


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#243
Master Daravon

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Not sure what you mean with the shop idea, though. :( I think the current way vending works is actually fairly decent, so long as we keep the "no vending in adjacent cells" patch in there.

 

I guess what I was trying to say was it might be interesting if another level of depth/interactivity could be added to the vending system where a player could rent shop space and customize how they would want their "wares" to be presented (inventory sprites on tables/shelves/racks/etc.), as opposed to having multiple accounts with vendo-merchies.

 

Given everything that was said about maps/objects and their quirks/limitations, I was thinking what if the interactive shop idea could simply be web-based instead; visually presented as the inside of a shop using RO's graphics, and with customizable looks/layouts. Basically, online web-based RO shopping/trading for players who might not always have the time/convenienceto be in-game at their desk/laptops, but would still like to interact with the in-game marketplace in real time. Perhaps made to be dynamically linked(?) to an account's storage so that cart weight/item limits and micro-management of items in bulk between inventories->cart->vending window could be bypassed entirely. Assuming the server economy gets as massive as we all would want it to be, it might just be convenient for those who intend to participate in it extensively *guiltyface.jpg*.

 

Again, I'm just daydreaming here; no pressure, my dears. :3

 

 

P.S. I dunno what GAT means (aside from it being an acronym >_<)... but regardless, with the way you and Gex (thanks also for the additional explanation <3 *enlightenment intensifies* /ene) have put it, perhaps most of my fantasies shall remain as such: fantasies /desp


Edited by Master Daravon, 10 December 2016 - 01:26 AM.

2cgg07b.jpg

 

"Never attribute to malice what can first be attributed to incompetence."- Hanlon's Razor

 

"If the model fails to conform with reality, don't try to change reality, change the model instead."

 

"Invention is a combination of brains and resources; the more brains you use, the less resources you need."

 

"The biggest room in the world is the room for improvement - what we can measure, we can improve."

 

"Though we can choose to ignore reality, we simply cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality."

 

"A problem well stated is a problem half-solved."


#244
Perry the Platypus

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Given everything that was said about maps/objects and their quirks/limitations, I was thinking what if the interactive shop idea could simply be web-based instead; visually presented as the inside of a shop using RO's graphics, and with customizable looks/layouts. Basically, online web-based RO shopping/trading for players who might not always have the time/convenienceto be in-game at their desk/laptops, but would still like to interact with the in-game marketplace in real time.

This one I'm unsure of; I know with eA it wouldn't have been possible without huge source mods, but rA made some modifications to the vending setup that might be easier to work with, in theory. Having said that, the part of actually purchasing the items in real time would be difficult, to say the least. If we did a web-based shopping system like this I'd prefer to tap in to the existing vending system (display all vending stores both online and in-game), rather than have two separate systems, but this could potentially lead to issues. Essentially it'd be difficult for the website and server to communicate in real time without possible exploits (albeit fairly unlikely unless someone knew the workings of it).

I'll give it some more thought when it's not 7am and see if I can think of a way to securely link web/server and not run into bugs (mainly race conditions). :D
 

P.S. I dunno what GAT means (aside from it being an acronym >_<)... but regardless, with the way you and Gex (thanks also for the additional explanation <3 *enlightenment intensifies* /ene) have put it, perhaps most of my fantasies shall remain as such: fantasies /desp

GAT just means a .gat file, which are one of the files that RO uses to manage map information. The GAT is stored both server-side (so the server can check if someone is trying to walk through a wall) and client-side (so the client knows where it can go).

Basically, every single cell in a map has certain flags; walkable, non-walkable, shootable (ex: you can shoot an arrow over water but not over a wall), etc. All of these are stored into the GAT file which, since it's loaded on both client and server, can't be dynamically updated to account for new/removed objects. :(

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#245
Master Daravon

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Basically, every single cell in a map has certain flags; walkable, non-walkable, shootable (ex: you can shoot an arrow over water but not over a wall), etc. All of these are stored into the GAT file which, since it's loaded on both client and server, can't be dynamically updated to account for new/removed objects. :(

 

/hmm... then I wonder - how does the line of cells where SE WoE barricades are placed on go from unwalkable to walkable only when the last barricade of that passage gets popped?...


2cgg07b.jpg

 

"Never attribute to malice what can first be attributed to incompetence."- Hanlon's Razor

 

"If the model fails to conform with reality, don't try to change reality, change the model instead."

 

"Invention is a combination of brains and resources; the more brains you use, the less resources you need."

 

"The biggest room in the world is the room for improvement - what we can measure, we can improve."

 

"Though we can choose to ignore reality, we simply cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality."

 

"A problem well stated is a problem half-solved."


#246
Perry the Platypus

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It is possible to edit some server-side cell information on the fly (which is also why you couldn't stand within a small area around the Disguise NPC), but it has some minor quirks/limitations, and it's awkward to do anything that isn't a rectangle/square. Technically it's possible but it's a nightmare to code and to look at, depending on the size/shape you want.

Essentially it works well for some minor stuff like blocking passage to an area with a clear obstruction (barricades), but for something more complex like a house rental system it'd be difficult to work with. Unfortunately only the cell information can be updated, nothing relating to objects (like dropping a wall or a table etc somewhere) can be updated dynamically as far as I'm aware. :(

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#247
Master Daravon

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/desp... I guess it's gonna be a massive project to make it all feasible, prolly something the equivalent of creating a whole new kind of emulator.... would be revolutionary though, IMHO. XD

 

[ramble]

I think the success of builder games is perhaps due to players/gamers as a whole coming of age - rather than be in a static virtual world of fixed rules and settings, perhaps people have outgrown that and are now more attracted to games with features that allow for more degrees of freedom of customization, not only with the characters/avatars and stats/parameters, but with practically everything to do with the overall virtual environment itself and the depth of how they deal/interact with other players and/or in-game resources... Considering all that RO had waaaaaay back then, simply the ability to change character cloth colors already blew my mind the first time I tried a private server which had such, but now, we all seem to take a lot of custom improvements about the game for granted, and we've all perhaps forgotten the "magic" that made a lot of us fall in love with the game. I guess all I can say is, if we really want to make RO great again, it might be worth examining our younger and older(?) selves to define what that "magic" was. I think private servers in whatever form they've taken have done well in "supplementing" (higher rates, slots, etc.) that magic in various ways, but IMHO, new success might just be found in "complementing" the game with features/expansions (which may have nothing to do with changing any of its combat mechanics) that seamlessly utilize what RO already has to offer.

 

/ic

 

[/ramble]


Edited by Master Daravon, 13 December 2016 - 02:26 AM.

2cgg07b.jpg

 

"Never attribute to malice what can first be attributed to incompetence."- Hanlon's Razor

 

"If the model fails to conform with reality, don't try to change reality, change the model instead."

 

"Invention is a combination of brains and resources; the more brains you use, the less resources you need."

 

"The biggest room in the world is the room for improvement - what we can measure, we can improve."

 

"Though we can choose to ignore reality, we simply cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality."

 

"A problem well stated is a problem half-solved."


#248
Perry the Platypus

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There's a lot of variance in what people want, of course, but I think for the most part people are looking for the general feel of RO, which as much as many hate to admit it, largely came from RO's PvM content. Of course WoE was a huge part too, but the kind of "wow" came from the (at the time) huge world of RO. The issue today, especially with the prevalence of HR/SHR servers, is most of the PvM content is now stale. There's nothing new to explore anymore, nothing to strive for aside from, for some, first place in a ladder.

I think that we'd need to look for a way to add that aspect back in. Inertia's PvP, while obviously far from the original intent of RO, always tried as much as possible to stick to minor changes/tweaks that kept (or restored) the feel of each class/skill. I personally feel we did a good job at keeping the feeling that people are looking for in PvP/WoE/etc, but we fell short on the PvM side.

Unfortunately I'm not sure the building aspect would fit well in what people are looking for in RO. There's a lot of places they can find building gameplay, but there's only one RO (something surprising, given how much copying/plagiarism is present in games, especially MMOs, these days). I think what it needs is more to explore; whether that be new styles of quests, new sets of items, new maps to look around, it needs that feeling of freshness back.

Perhaps I'm mistaken in my thinking here, but I do feel that's something that has been missing from RO, especially in higher rates, for a very long time.

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#249
Master Daravon

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Seems you've summed it up pretty well there, brony. :3

 

Just to be clear, I'm not insisting on the builder thing; only putting it out there to see what peeps might have to say about it. If anything, I at least wanted to demonstrate that cycles of creation and destruction (if well balanced/applied) could lead to better in-game economies. I guess I'm just sort of a more radical kind of RO player that somehow wants to see RO step/grow out of its box, though I also have no problems with balancing my tendency to do so considering the sense of comfort/security that also comes with simply growing the box; I do agree with your points, but I hope I can be forgiven for thinking a little *understatement detected* too far ahead of things. :)

 

 

*mania intensifies*

 

You're right about Inertia to be somewhat lacking that classic RO PvM feel - something I confidently believe will be addressed by your solution to scale up monster power levels (thinking back to that discussion, I did a bit more research and realized that some of the highest lvl pre-re mobs were at around lvl 160, so this would affect the discussed scaling proportions as I believe I had wrongly asserted that monster max level was 99 only XD), along with modifications that would make them even more challenging, but fixing this alone then leads to problems that eventually seem to plague low/mid rates that survive long enough to manifest such: A problem I've observed in long-running low/mid-rates is instead of or aside from zeny inflation, they end up having an over-abundance of mid to high tier stuff that piles up, seen through massive seas of vendors. Ultimately, the natural way that gear (regardless of its quality) gets taken out of circulation within the game economy is when players quit (if they decide not to give or sell ther gear away), but the last time I checked, having players quit is definitely the last thing any server wants to happen XD. The option to decard does help mitigate this; one tends to not simply sacrifice a mediocre piece of gear with a good/great card at the hands of the upgrade NPC as overall drop rates get lower. I'm not sure if the lack of item sinks (either cards or gear) would be something that can be considered a serious problem with the drop rates you have in mind (at least not in the short term), might be a good idea for some sort of either

a) a recycler NPC which could turn gear into different amounts and/or types of "raw material" determined perhaps by the refine rate, grade (light/medium/heavy for armors, weapon level for weapons), and quality (common, rare, very rare, or custom), or perhaps...

b) some sort of pawnshop/museum NPC which would work similar to the recycler, but would give the player either a fair amount of zeny (easier to sink /gg), or some other valuable "artifact" that could be used in some "magical" interesting enchants or some other quest.

c) more uses for nearly useless cards that would at least do justice to their drop rates. Lots of ideas for this... one example: an NPC in any of the game's casinos which buy any quantity of any of 13 randomly selected basic monster cards (selection could prolly change at either daily or weekly intervals) for a decent amount of zeny for each card; backstory: "The cards would be used to create high-end specialty/collector playing card decks for our high-rollers and enthusiasts"... Would give players a reason to hold on to ANY card knowing they'd have value at some point.

 

Going back to the classic RO feel; might help to get that old feel of exploration back if custom NPCs would be placed in ALL towns instead of having them in a main town. Might also help to condense "ease of life" features into at least 1 or 2 NPCs that feel like a kafra for all the other extended features. I have nothing against main/custom towns, but the purists do seem to like hanging out in the classic towns depending on what their in-game routines are.

 

As far as additional content is concerned, methinks any features mostly taken for granted in HR/SHRs that deviate/expand (ex. custom player commands or 2nd to 4th(?) armor slots) from "pure/raw" RO deserve their own backstory and quest to unlock (or perhaps as faction perks?), perhaps could be done similar to how platinum skills are obtained, or maybe through some item that needs to be in a character's inventory. I believe such would add that extra bit of value/investment to a character/account. Example: @storage and/or @warp could be something that can be used only when a hefty(?) weekly/monthly zeny fee is paid to the kafra corp. or maybe through a special magic kafra "thing" (perhaps storable/tradeable/vendable for players to transfer/give//sell) as a quest reward; could prolly even have limited time versions of such as part of the newbie/starter pack.

 

Still got lots more to add in terms of concepts and details (so much more already scattered everywhere in the forum), but overall still a bit too murky until certain parametric limits are full decided on: max blvl/jlvl, slots, zeny farm rate/method.


2cgg07b.jpg

 

"Never attribute to malice what can first be attributed to incompetence."- Hanlon's Razor

 

"If the model fails to conform with reality, don't try to change reality, change the model instead."

 

"Invention is a combination of brains and resources; the more brains you use, the less resources you need."

 

"The biggest room in the world is the room for improvement - what we can measure, we can improve."

 

"Though we can choose to ignore reality, we simply cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality."

 

"A problem well stated is a problem half-solved."


#250
Perry the Platypus

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Your sometimes radical ideas are precisely why I enjoy discussing things with you; you bring a very different perspective to the table. Wouldn't do much good to just have someone with exactly the same ideas as me. :D


I think that, given the ease of creating new characters in HRs/SHRs, a lot of the higher tier gear actually does stay relevant in the market because most people are too lazy to use storage to transfer items every time they switch to another character. Taos, for example, were always in demand on Inertia, partially because people generally needed 8-14 of them for a standard build, but also because they needed them on multiple (usually 5+) characters as well. Or maybe that was just me having 7 different Lord Knights at a time and needing to buy a new set of headgears/cards every time I told too many people who my legit was LOL.

The main thing Inertia's market was lacking was a way to drain Zeny out of circulation, and/or balance it between wealth classes a bit more effectively. The custom drop rates may help with this a bit by making some quest items more desirable, and alongside some more challenging custom dungeons, may help the value of Yggs and other usable items. Placing some higher costs on certain NPCs may be beneficial as well in some cases.

Having said that, gear may actually be pulled out of circulation anyway if refining becomes more useful on armor, given how the balance will shift a bit from what it was in Inertia. Might be a good way to sink both equips and Zeny at the same time.


One thing to note about the towns is that, while I do agree with what you said, I don't think that SHRs really have the population to support that. The main town is a nice way to give a central place for everyone to pass by each other from time to time, and also makes it very easy for newbies to ask questions.

Charging for things like commands is a little risky I think. While I'm not at all a fan of the ever common spoon-feeding servers these days, SHRs do still have a general expectation of convenience with them. I'd be more inclined to raise/add prices on some NPC services as I mentioned above, preferably ones that are more likely to be used by higher tier players who won't need the Zeny for much else.


No idea why I'm addressing this last, but I think I may retract the buffed monsters idea - I feel it may be too complex (lots of tweaking/testing) for not enough benefit. I'll still be buffing MVPs as I did on Inertia, but I think introducing challenging scenarios via custom monsters/dungeons (and I do have a lot of ideas for this) would be more effective/interesting.


We can dig a lot more into the details of everything once I've got the content team set up. :o I'm hoping to set things up for that fairly soon - I'm just confirming the roles of a couple people first so I know who we have.

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#251
Master Daravon

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Your sometimes radical ideas are precisely why I enjoy discussing things with you; you bring a very different perspective to the table. Wouldn't do much good to just have someone with exactly the same ideas as me. :D

 

...but... but... you still haven't told me if I've passed the Turing test (XD) or not. </3

 

 

But seriously, thanks for the honesty. Much appreciated, brony :3. I guess I can say I'm in good company when I don't get accused of being a pompous, over-thinking, know-it-all, though I must admit that I still do have blind spots. For example, I haven't exactly experienced/studied most of the expanded classes (SL, Ninja, etc.) as deeply as I think is required for me to be able to give sufficiently qualified opinions on them as to how they might operate/interact within hypothetically extra/interpolated variations of the meta. (Somewhat relevant) On the other hand, I think it also might just be a good thing that I have only a superficial understanding of programming, as I can prolly imagine myself biasing my own ideas to within the limitations of my fantasy programming skillz, if I had any. I also can't say that I've tried every server that was ever worth trying, and I'm probably even at the trailing end of players my age that have decided to get back into the RO scene. /swt

 

 

As for the rest of what you've said, I do believe/agree that a lot of the experience from Inertia (and all the other plans that there were for it) serve as very valid points of reference for further extrapolation or innovation ("no need to fix what ain't broke" as the good ol' saying goes). Personally, I'm still all for finding the "goldilocks zone" between the "spoon-feedy <--> too grindy" spectrum (which I believe defracts into other salient measures that might or might not yet be clearly defined at the moment), regardless of whether it aims to be categorized as HR/SHR or not.

 

I understand if you'd decide to not buff monster stats/lvls. I believe the prior discussion regarding this was all purely theoretical and it is valid to say that may perhaps sound good only on paper... overall, I think the benefits of doing so might depend on slots; from personal experience at 275 max b-lvl and [2]slot armors, high to uber tier mobs were still a bit of a pain when solo'd with decent gear, but at [4]slots, the PvM tends to become a no-brainer. I was also thinking perhaps simple increases to the probability that they use certain skills (ex. elemental strikes - I dunno if they're affected by perfect dodge, though) could provide the intended degree of challenge without the tedium of tweaking several stats for a huge portion of the whole bestiary (or if you're still interested in buffing stat-wise, perhaps apply them only to the strongest top 10-5% of mobs).

 

Lastly,

YAY! Content team! :))


Edited by Master Daravon, 15 December 2016 - 10:12 AM.

2cgg07b.jpg

 

"Never attribute to malice what can first be attributed to incompetence."- Hanlon's Razor

 

"If the model fails to conform with reality, don't try to change reality, change the model instead."

 

"Invention is a combination of brains and resources; the more brains you use, the less resources you need."

 

"The biggest room in the world is the room for improvement - what we can measure, we can improve."

 

"Though we can choose to ignore reality, we simply cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality."

 

"A problem well stated is a problem half-solved."


#252
Master Daravon

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 (mainly race conditions). :D

 

...This is either a) a joke whose point I've completely missed, or b) a serious technical term/issue whose point and/or usage I've completely missed. >_<


2cgg07b.jpg

 

"Never attribute to malice what can first be attributed to incompetence."- Hanlon's Razor

 

"If the model fails to conform with reality, don't try to change reality, change the model instead."

 

"Invention is a combination of brains and resources; the more brains you use, the less resources you need."

 

"The biggest room in the world is the room for improvement - what we can measure, we can improve."

 

"Though we can choose to ignore reality, we simply cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality."

 

"A problem well stated is a problem half-solved."


#253
Perry the Platypus

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I understand if you'd decide to not buff monster stats/lvls. I believe the prior discussion regarding this was all purely theoretical and it is valid to say that may perhaps sound good only on paper... overall, I think the benefits of doing so might depend on slots; from personal experience at 275 max b-lvl and [2]slot armors, high to uber tier mobs were still a bit of a pain when solo'd with decent gear, but at [4]slots, the PvM tends to become a no-brainer. I was also thinking perhaps simple increases to the probability that they use certain skills (ex. elemental strikes - I dunno if they're affected by perfect dodge, though) could provide the intended degree of challenge without the tedium of tweaking several stats for a huge portion of the whole bestiary (or if you're still interested in buffing stat-wise, perhaps apply them only to the strongest top 10-5% of mobs).

I keep jumping back and forth on the slots so I really have no idea what's going to happen with that yet. =P

Improving the monster AI would definitely be useful, though it'd likely be very difficult to do. I had some ideas for this but they were largely based on adding custom factors to new MVPs (something that would be difficult to do a blanket pass over all mobs with). Adjusting some skill rates for various mobs may be worthwhile though, and is definitely worth looking into. :o
 

...This is either a) a joke whose point I've completely missed, or b) a serious technical term/issue whose point and/or usage I've completely missed. >_<

Whoops, forgot that's somewhat jargon LOL.

A race condition is basically when two (or more) things are running side by side, and events happen in an unintended order.

Terrible explanation

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#254
Master Daravon

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Oh, /ic.

 

Also, nice one trying to see if anyone gets baited into shutting their computers off. XD


2cgg07b.jpg

 

"Never attribute to malice what can first be attributed to incompetence."- Hanlon's Razor

 

"If the model fails to conform with reality, don't try to change reality, change the model instead."

 

"Invention is a combination of brains and resources; the more brains you use, the less resources you need."

 

"The biggest room in the world is the room for improvement - what we can measure, we can improve."

 

"Though we can choose to ignore reality, we simply cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality."

 

"A problem well stated is a problem half-solved."


#255
Perry the Platypus

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It wouldn't shut their computer off LOL, Ctrl+Alt+Esc is actually the direct shortcut to task manager. It used to be Ctrl+Alt+Del, no idea why they changed it.

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#256
Master Daravon

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/hmm... it's still ctrl+alt+del in my case. Ancient machine is ancient, I guess.

 

I did check into that a bit tho, and I think ctrl+alt+esc just seems a lot more ergonomic, but I do still like ctrl+alt+del as it would seem a whole lot more difficult to accidentaly to press with simply one hand. /swt

 

So how's it going with the content team? I'm hoping they're all as annoying as I am. :33


Edited by Master Daravon, 19 December 2016 - 01:19 AM.

2cgg07b.jpg

 

"Never attribute to malice what can first be attributed to incompetence."- Hanlon's Razor

 

"If the model fails to conform with reality, don't try to change reality, change the model instead."

 

"Invention is a combination of brains and resources; the more brains you use, the less resources you need."

 

"The biggest room in the world is the room for improvement - what we can measure, we can improve."

 

"Though we can choose to ignore reality, we simply cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality."

 

"A problem well stated is a problem half-solved."


#257
Perry the Platypus

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I'm not entirely sure when it was changed to Ctrl+Alt+Esc (I know it's in Win7 and up, not sure about Vista), but Ctrl+Alt+Del was changed to open a generic menu that can then be used to open task manager (and switch accounts and other things). :o

Sorry for the quietness on the content team, things have been a bit busy because of Christmas and whatnot. =P We may start the team soon, or possibly wait until after Christmas since that'd probably be better for some anyway. Not sure yet but we'll see soon enough. :D

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#258
Master Daravon

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Of course, would be a good idea to start when things are settled. Don't mind me too much in the meantime (The Pipoy and I shall be on vacation with the fam for a few days after Christmas), I'll just go be annoying elsewhere for now. :)


2cgg07b.jpg

 

"Never attribute to malice what can first be attributed to incompetence."- Hanlon's Razor

 

"If the model fails to conform with reality, don't try to change reality, change the model instead."

 

"Invention is a combination of brains and resources; the more brains you use, the less resources you need."

 

"The biggest room in the world is the room for improvement - what we can measure, we can improve."

 

"Though we can choose to ignore reality, we simply cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality."

 

"A problem well stated is a problem half-solved."



InertiaRO - Super High Rate